What a well written, comprehensive, informative article. Thanks to Dr Syed Haider, we are currently testing the lemon juice method (best we can) on our 94yo mom with an 8mm stone. It’s due out next week (currently has a stent needed to reduce infection) but we are hoping it’s reduced or gone. We will update. Thank you for all the wonderful well presented information.
I want to follow up on my 94 yo mother’s case of an 8mm kidney stone and relay our experience with the lemon juice method.
On 7-26-24, an ER cat scan revealed an 8mm kidney stone that caused my mom pyelonephritis and septicemia (E coli). They put in a stent to relieve the infection and scheduled a stone removal for 8-28. In the meantime, a good friend forwarded your twitter post on how lemon water could possibly remove or reduce a kidney stone. We tried it best we could. My mom drank a total of about 6 cups over a few nonconsecutive days, with about 2 cups total a day. We also tried a 12 oz glass of water with some lemon juice and 2 TBSP of apple cider vinegar - we did this 2-3 times.
Her stone removal went very well - it was “very easy” the doctor said. I asked him how large the stone was and he said about 5mm. I told him the cat scan said 8mm. He looked puzzled; immediately confirmed the 8mm result on his phone and was surprised to see the difference. I told him what we did and he was curious. I will send him your substack with the calculations behind the theory. Hopefully this will help others.
Even though we were not able to do the suggested amount, I believe it reduced the stone to make for an easier surgery.
We are very grateful to you Dr. Haider and sincerely thank you for your honest clear sharing of medical knowledge. May God bless and keep you.
Do you think magnesium citrate does not release enough citrate to be consequential?
How about other remedies that are popular in contemporary folklore? Drinking a cup of olive oil comes to mind. My personal favorite has been chugging good quality coconut water in large quantities. That has successfully helped me pass two stones.
One thing I've always found fascinating and troubling is that most urologists don't even bother to srrongly suggest that their patients collect the stone for stone analysis. As a primary care doctor, I have so many patients who have passed Stones but don't have any record of what the stone was made of, which makes future treatment difficult to impossible.
Drinking a lot of anything will help pass stones, I don’t know if there’s anything particularly beneficial about coconut water. Probably there are at least some subtle benefits to structure /coherent water from plants over tap water. I’ve seen olive oil recommended out lemon, but don’t know what the mechanism might be. I suppose magnesium citrate should work but you would also get a laxative effect from the magnesium. It looks like 1000mg mg citrate would lead to approximately 60% the citrate in urine that you would get from consuming the juice or 1 lemon.
So very interesting and informative Drs Ahmed & Haider! Thank you! Regarding toothache, I wanted to share an anecdote my husband and I had while taking a road trip in the western USA. We were in mountainous Colorado & Utah so the altitude was much higher than where we live in Houston. He got a severe toothache while we were in Colorado that threatened to end our trip. This tooth was one that had been a problem in the past and his dentist had been keeping an eye on it at home. Someone told us the altitude can worsen tooth pain when we were on our trip. Anyway, I keep 2 small bottles of sodium chlorite and hydrochloric acid when I travel so that I can make active chlorine dioxide otherwise known as MMS. I use MMS to control recurring mouth ulcers I get but also just in case I get an infection. FYI, there are protocols for mixing MMS with water and one should do their research if using. So I mixed up a solution for my husband and had him do prolonged rinse at a rest stop. His pain decreased! We continued the rinse every 3-4 hours and when we got to a hotel he took a low dose (half dose) Motrin and we iced his jaw. Pain went completely away and he was able to sleep. Next day pain was not as bad. He called his dentist long distance and we were able to get an antibiotic prescription. But he held off on taking because the pain was tolerable and mostly gone much of the time after our own interventions. He would rinse with the MMS morning and evenings, take the NSAID once or twice a day and ice in the evening. He never took the antibiotic. We had a great trip! Pain resolved. Weeks later, the dentist extracted the tooth. My husband does not really believe the MMS was the most effective treatment we did on our trip. But I’m convinced.
I had a similar experience, MMS definitely works and can help with toothaches, but if it’s not helping or just taking the edge off then the single most powerful treatment seems to be the garlic.
Wow, did not know elevation affects teeth. Very interesting that we were just at 6000 feet elevation at Grand Canyon and a tooth we've been watching acted up badly - swollen cheek, swollen above tooth... I kept garlic clove on it (thanks again Dr. Haider) as much as possible and was able to hike a few miles not a big problem. Salt rinses and warm compresses helped too. It healed completely in a 4-5 days. 6th day at dentist film showed no abcess but tooth has a slight crack a med. sized cavity under an amalgam filling. He recommends Root Canal Am going to try vey hard to avoid that if possible. So now I'm trying hydroxyapatite (from Dr. Haider post) and other things (oil pulling, Bio-Dent, ...) attempting to hopefully re-build enamel.
I have had kidney stones surgically removed. I have also had some pass. Finally started to have apple cider vinegar and tumeric with pepper daily and never another stone. Is it a precursor for kidney disease? I am stage 3. I eat clean and 80% fruits & veggies and 20% non glutinous grains and beans. This helps all things kidney. Proteinuria has improved and gfr is slowly improving.
I have been hospitalized four times with a kidney stone. Each time came after a long move, during the summer, when I was dehydrated. One of those experiences was much better than the others. At Homewood Hospital (Birmingham, AL), I was offered morphine, which so eased the pained that I relaxed, hydrated, passed the stone, and went to work.
Only time I've ever had morphine. Correct call by that doc.
Good point, pain killers are a blessing, and practically speaking opiates are almost always given tor any severe pain despite any theoretical concerns and many people often do just fine with them. Even if they did lead to slower passage or impaction and then a procedure some percentage of the time people would still generally prefer that over the pain. That being said high dose NSAIDs can often work just as well for pain control.
Dr. Haider, you have helped our family for a few years now on mygotodoc. Our five year old has bilateral Nephrocalcinosis. She is in a strict low oxalate diet (because I didn’t know how else to help her). It’s heartbreaking. How much lemon juice should she drink daily to avoid oxalate stones and which supplement of Chanca Piedra do you recommend and how much per day for her? She weighs 45lbs. Thank you!
I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter's condition.
It's important to recognize that oxalates play a protective role in plants and have specific functions in the human body as well, such as binding to heavy metals and potentially triggering a beneficial stress response. Oxalates can contribute to the neutralization of oxidative stress as they are potent antioxidants, similar to their role in plants. Everything in the body has a purpose; oxalates are no exception. Therefore, simply cutting out oxalate-rich foods is not sufficient. We need to understand why the body is behaving this way and consider the underlying reasons why oxalates are becoming double-edged sword in some cases.
To effectively manage chronic kidney issues, a comprehensive approach is essential, focusing on several key areas:
Maintain Blood Pressure: Keeping blood pressure within a healthy range is crucial, as abnormal levels can cause significant damage to the kidneys over time.
Stress Management: As Dr. Haider mentioned, there is a strong connection between stress and kidney health, making stress management an important component of treatment.
Liver Function: Supporting proper liver function is vital, as liver dysfunction can lead to increased strain on the kidneys.
Resolve Inflammation and Infection: Addressing any inflammation or infection is important, as these can weaken the kidneys and exacerbate health issues.
Increase Urine Production: Enhancing urine output helps the kidneys operate more efficiently and maintain overall health.
Detoxification of Organs: Supporting the detoxification processes of the body is critical. This can involve practices such as breathing exercises for the lungs, liver detox protocols, maintaining a healthy gut microbiome, skin detox techniques like Derma-Dialysis, and general kidney support.
Purify the Blood: Keeping the blood clean and healthy is key to preventing further strain on the kidneys.
As you can see, effectively managing chronic kidney issues requires a holistic, multi-faceted approach. Relying solely on short-term solutions may offer temporary relief but could result in long-term harm. A thorough and comprehensive strategy is necessary for achieving lasting health and recovery.
I would recommend a consult for a more comprehensive protocol that addresses the cause or the stones rather than just addressing the stones. This will seem hard up front but will pay big dividends later on because there is something seriously off for this to happen at 5 years old, and the longer it’s allowed to continue the more off that root cause will get.
What a well written, comprehensive, informative article. Thanks to Dr Syed Haider, we are currently testing the lemon juice method (best we can) on our 94yo mom with an 8mm stone. It’s due out next week (currently has a stent needed to reduce infection) but we are hoping it’s reduced or gone. We will update. Thank you for all the wonderful well presented information.
You’re welcome I hope it helps
I want to follow up on my 94 yo mother’s case of an 8mm kidney stone and relay our experience with the lemon juice method.
On 7-26-24, an ER cat scan revealed an 8mm kidney stone that caused my mom pyelonephritis and septicemia (E coli). They put in a stent to relieve the infection and scheduled a stone removal for 8-28. In the meantime, a good friend forwarded your twitter post on how lemon water could possibly remove or reduce a kidney stone. We tried it best we could. My mom drank a total of about 6 cups over a few nonconsecutive days, with about 2 cups total a day. We also tried a 12 oz glass of water with some lemon juice and 2 TBSP of apple cider vinegar - we did this 2-3 times.
Her stone removal went very well - it was “very easy” the doctor said. I asked him how large the stone was and he said about 5mm. I told him the cat scan said 8mm. He looked puzzled; immediately confirmed the 8mm result on his phone and was surprised to see the difference. I told him what we did and he was curious. I will send him your substack with the calculations behind the theory. Hopefully this will help others.
Even though we were not able to do the suggested amount, I believe it reduced the stone to make for an easier surgery.
We are very grateful to you Dr. Haider and sincerely thank you for your honest clear sharing of medical knowledge. May God bless and keep you.
Thank you for posting a follow up note, this is great information.
Happy to and will continue spreading the word / sharing your substack.
Do you think magnesium citrate does not release enough citrate to be consequential?
How about other remedies that are popular in contemporary folklore? Drinking a cup of olive oil comes to mind. My personal favorite has been chugging good quality coconut water in large quantities. That has successfully helped me pass two stones.
One thing I've always found fascinating and troubling is that most urologists don't even bother to srrongly suggest that their patients collect the stone for stone analysis. As a primary care doctor, I have so many patients who have passed Stones but don't have any record of what the stone was made of, which makes future treatment difficult to impossible.
Drinking a lot of anything will help pass stones, I don’t know if there’s anything particularly beneficial about coconut water. Probably there are at least some subtle benefits to structure /coherent water from plants over tap water. I’ve seen olive oil recommended out lemon, but don’t know what the mechanism might be. I suppose magnesium citrate should work but you would also get a laxative effect from the magnesium. It looks like 1000mg mg citrate would lead to approximately 60% the citrate in urine that you would get from consuming the juice or 1 lemon.
So very interesting and informative Drs Ahmed & Haider! Thank you! Regarding toothache, I wanted to share an anecdote my husband and I had while taking a road trip in the western USA. We were in mountainous Colorado & Utah so the altitude was much higher than where we live in Houston. He got a severe toothache while we were in Colorado that threatened to end our trip. This tooth was one that had been a problem in the past and his dentist had been keeping an eye on it at home. Someone told us the altitude can worsen tooth pain when we were on our trip. Anyway, I keep 2 small bottles of sodium chlorite and hydrochloric acid when I travel so that I can make active chlorine dioxide otherwise known as MMS. I use MMS to control recurring mouth ulcers I get but also just in case I get an infection. FYI, there are protocols for mixing MMS with water and one should do their research if using. So I mixed up a solution for my husband and had him do prolonged rinse at a rest stop. His pain decreased! We continued the rinse every 3-4 hours and when we got to a hotel he took a low dose (half dose) Motrin and we iced his jaw. Pain went completely away and he was able to sleep. Next day pain was not as bad. He called his dentist long distance and we were able to get an antibiotic prescription. But he held off on taking because the pain was tolerable and mostly gone much of the time after our own interventions. He would rinse with the MMS morning and evenings, take the NSAID once or twice a day and ice in the evening. He never took the antibiotic. We had a great trip! Pain resolved. Weeks later, the dentist extracted the tooth. My husband does not really believe the MMS was the most effective treatment we did on our trip. But I’m convinced.
I had a similar experience, MMS definitely works and can help with toothaches, but if it’s not helping or just taking the edge off then the single most powerful treatment seems to be the garlic.
Wow, did not know elevation affects teeth. Very interesting that we were just at 6000 feet elevation at Grand Canyon and a tooth we've been watching acted up badly - swollen cheek, swollen above tooth... I kept garlic clove on it (thanks again Dr. Haider) as much as possible and was able to hike a few miles not a big problem. Salt rinses and warm compresses helped too. It healed completely in a 4-5 days. 6th day at dentist film showed no abcess but tooth has a slight crack a med. sized cavity under an amalgam filling. He recommends Root Canal Am going to try vey hard to avoid that if possible. So now I'm trying hydroxyapatite (from Dr. Haider post) and other things (oil pulling, Bio-Dent, ...) attempting to hopefully re-build enamel.
I have had kidney stones surgically removed. I have also had some pass. Finally started to have apple cider vinegar and tumeric with pepper daily and never another stone. Is it a precursor for kidney disease? I am stage 3. I eat clean and 80% fruits & veggies and 20% non glutinous grains and beans. This helps all things kidney. Proteinuria has improved and gfr is slowly improving.
I have been hospitalized four times with a kidney stone. Each time came after a long move, during the summer, when I was dehydrated. One of those experiences was much better than the others. At Homewood Hospital (Birmingham, AL), I was offered morphine, which so eased the pained that I relaxed, hydrated, passed the stone, and went to work.
Only time I've ever had morphine. Correct call by that doc.
Good point, pain killers are a blessing, and practically speaking opiates are almost always given tor any severe pain despite any theoretical concerns and many people often do just fine with them. Even if they did lead to slower passage or impaction and then a procedure some percentage of the time people would still generally prefer that over the pain. That being said high dose NSAIDs can often work just as well for pain control.
Dr. Haider, you have helped our family for a few years now on mygotodoc. Our five year old has bilateral Nephrocalcinosis. She is in a strict low oxalate diet (because I didn’t know how else to help her). It’s heartbreaking. How much lemon juice should she drink daily to avoid oxalate stones and which supplement of Chanca Piedra do you recommend and how much per day for her? She weighs 45lbs. Thank you!
I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter's condition.
It's important to recognize that oxalates play a protective role in plants and have specific functions in the human body as well, such as binding to heavy metals and potentially triggering a beneficial stress response. Oxalates can contribute to the neutralization of oxidative stress as they are potent antioxidants, similar to their role in plants. Everything in the body has a purpose; oxalates are no exception. Therefore, simply cutting out oxalate-rich foods is not sufficient. We need to understand why the body is behaving this way and consider the underlying reasons why oxalates are becoming double-edged sword in some cases.
To effectively manage chronic kidney issues, a comprehensive approach is essential, focusing on several key areas:
Maintain Blood Pressure: Keeping blood pressure within a healthy range is crucial, as abnormal levels can cause significant damage to the kidneys over time.
Stress Management: As Dr. Haider mentioned, there is a strong connection between stress and kidney health, making stress management an important component of treatment.
Liver Function: Supporting proper liver function is vital, as liver dysfunction can lead to increased strain on the kidneys.
Resolve Inflammation and Infection: Addressing any inflammation or infection is important, as these can weaken the kidneys and exacerbate health issues.
Increase Urine Production: Enhancing urine output helps the kidneys operate more efficiently and maintain overall health.
Detoxification of Organs: Supporting the detoxification processes of the body is critical. This can involve practices such as breathing exercises for the lungs, liver detox protocols, maintaining a healthy gut microbiome, skin detox techniques like Derma-Dialysis, and general kidney support.
Purify the Blood: Keeping the blood clean and healthy is key to preventing further strain on the kidneys.
As you can see, effectively managing chronic kidney issues requires a holistic, multi-faceted approach. Relying solely on short-term solutions may offer temporary relief but could result in long-term harm. A thorough and comprehensive strategy is necessary for achieving lasting health and recovery.
I would recommend a consult for a more comprehensive protocol that addresses the cause or the stones rather than just addressing the stones. This will seem hard up front but will pay big dividends later on because there is something seriously off for this to happen at 5 years old, and the longer it’s allowed to continue the more off that root cause will get.
mygotodoc.com/hakim